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Blab it and grab it
Posted On: 08/01/08 09:30:43 PM
Age 37, NJ
Prosperity preachers use Roman 10:9 as a magic formula to get "saved". Romans 10:9 does not talk about repentance. Romans 10:9 talks about progressive salvation which comes after justification not a pre-condition for salvation. Click here to reply to this post
Here is my previous post
Posted On: 04/14/08 03:32:57 PM
Age 40, IN
Free
Posted On: 03/28/08 03:59:25 PM Age 40, IN
1) Romans 3:24, "...being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," 2) Romans 5:15, "But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many." 3) Romans 5:16, "And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification." 4) Romans 5:18, "Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life." 5) Galatians 4:26, "but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all." 6) Revelation 21:6, "And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts." 7) Revelation 22:17, "And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely." 8) Matthew 10:8, "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give." Are these verses enough evidence or do you wish that I send some more?
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Also, if you think you can earn your salvation through good works, here's one for good measure:
Titus 3:4-6, "But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which we have done, BUT ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED US, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,"
AND EPH 2;8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."
If it were possible to somehow earn your salvation, we all would be able to boast when we entered into heaven.
This is pretty straight-forward evidence. Click here to reply to this post
The problem with the health wealth and prosperity gospel
Posted On: 03/30/08 01:10:59 PM
Age 66, WA
Thank you Rom, I went to one of your meetings in Bothell washington, bought everyone of your tapes, and cassets, studied all religons and finally knew I had the truth. You did not have this one, but I watched TBN for a long time and my spirit just would not let me continue, and I eventually saw it was all about LUST and greed of money. How sad, We are to go to the word to see if what they all preach on to see if it is true, and one scripture stuck out, the Holy Spirit will lead us into all thruth,,and HE did..Now I know the old T is the revealing of the New t. the very foundation. and what G-d did once ,He said He would do again, and is..like in the days of Noah..wickedness of all things is here, including building the old Tower of Babel, that G-d destroyed for violence and sin. Now our gov wants to rebuild it all again and look at the violence, after all he gave us our own language and culture , but man thinks he knows more than G-d. I see apostasy in all things as it is written and the blindness is growing daily..how sad..Because of you I can witness to JW, Mormans, Catholic and all of them..G-d bless you..I still don't know how to get the tape you had with yours on the Catholic Church, the one I had I gave to a friend and never got it back..I can't remember the title, Catholic or Cult?? I wish I knew where to get it. Love KIm Click here to reply to this post
Good Word for Today
Posted On: 03/29/08 11:26:35 AM
Age 33, GA
Excellent word for the Church today. Sadly too few hear this message and most of the church today in the West seems to be embracing some form of the health and wealth gospel. For years this message was mainly found in charismatic churches but has now crossed over to the evangelical church at large with the success gospel of Bruce Wilkinson and Rick Warren. Click here to reply to this post
Wow!
Posted On: 03/28/08 10:06:23 PM
Age 53, CA
Just another POWERFUL testimony by Dr. Ron Carlson! It's too bad that so many have TWISTED and WARPED the Gospel into something it's NOT. Can God heal? Of course he can! He can heal instantly, he can heal over time. Does he ALWAYS heal? Well, certainly in the END, every believer is healed! Does God GUARANTEE physical health and healing in our earthly lives? Ask the question to my friend John who held his two-year-old daughter in his arms as she died of cancer. Ask me, who held the hand of my Mother as she took the last breath of her life. Does God provide wealth and prosperity. It depends on what you call wealth and prosperity! Some people obtain "wealth and prosperity" from God because he knows that it will be used to advance the Kingdom. Others "earn" wealth and prosperity through --how shall we say-- misleading people about what the Bible says about the subject. But, if the only measure is how much money and how many earthly possessions we have, then I would opine that it is not really "wealth and prosperity" in the eyes of the Lord. Click here to reply to this post
Choosing to believe in a God of Miracles
Posted On: 03/28/08 08:55:24 PM
Age 47, OH
We have raised our children with the "prosperity gospel" message or as I refer to it, covenent theology. They have been primarily home schooled but also attend classes with other Christian home schoolers who do not share our beliefs in this. Recently when one of my teenage sons was telling a story of a tremendous healing to one of his classmates in the car, the friend said "You really believe that happened?" (in a scoffing tone) We talked about it later and decided we were glad we chose to believe in a big God, a God of miracles, and yes a God who can and does provide the "means to get wealth" to his flock. God's financial laws worked very well for his chosen people, Solomon was the world's richest man, heaven has streets of gold, and poor Christians can't further the gospel much if they can't make their house payments. What do you do with the verse that says the wealth of the wicked is layed up in store for the believers? If I'm wrong, I'd much rather be wrong believing God could do too much vs. having to explain why I didn't trust his word. Click here to reply to this post
Bravo to the scoffing classmate!
Posted On: 03/30/08 06:57:49 AM
Age 54, VA
Jesus said that the times we are living in will be characterized by FALSE signs and wonders and that they would be so inticing that if it were possible even the elect would be fooled. Bravo to the scoffing classmate for recognizing what was probably a FALSE sign or wonder. Luke Click here to reply to this post
Bewitched by Another Gospel
Posted On: 03/30/08 12:23:48 AM
Age 59, VA
I, too, was a part of this movement for years and, praise God, He delivered me from it. The scripture that the wealth of the wicked is laid up for the just simply means that God will bless his children through the means of even those who aren't His children. Nowhere in the bible does it say there will be an end time transfer of wealth as a result of the wealth being stored up for another time, as the Movement teaches. That is presumption! The wealth of the wicked has been coming into the hands of believers forever! Since the beginning of time God has purposed that money would filter into his children's hands from among others, the hands of the wicked. Likewise, He told Job that the hail is "stored up" or laid up but he certainly did not mean for some great transfer to another location or at another time, but rather that he delivers it when and where he sees fit. No great mystery! But more than that, what will you do with the scripture that says, "Hearken, my beloved Brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?" (And if you check the context this is talking about the poor monetarily and materialistically not the poor in spirit.) This proves that a man's material prosperity is not a measure of his spiritual maturity. But rather God is saying, that he has seen to it that the monetarily and materially poor are rich in faith! And then there is the parable about the sower sowing the seed which, Jesus tells us, is about the condition of our hearts and the word being sown there, yet the Movement says it is about sowing your money and how to multiply it. On and on I could go, but for those who just want their ears tickled, they will deny these things are so! And please make no mistake, I and many others believe in healing, believe God takes care of us spiritually, emotiionally and with our physical needs, but we also know that we must learn to be content whether we be abased or abound. We have come to learn that godliness with contentment is great gain. Unlike what many teach, that Jesus was wealthy because he had a treasurer and wore a seemless garment and on and on and on, we believe the scripture that Jesus,while on earth, was not wealthy but rather had no place of his own to lay his head, that just as he gave up his high position in Heaven for a lowly one here, he also gave up his riches to come to earth as our Savior and Example. He did not model the example that the Health and wealth Gospels model. The Health and Wealth Gospel is a False Gospel, a differnt Gospel from what Paul Preached. Those that follow it have been bewitched. Click here to reply to this post
Proverbs 12:12
Posted On: 03/29/08 07:31:36 PM
Age 54, VA
While you are lusting after the wealth of the wicked maybe you should consider Proverbs 12:12 - The wicked desire the plunder of evil men, but the root of the righteous flourishes. Luke Click here to reply to this post
Rethink, Maybe?
Posted On: 03/29/08 08:48:09 AM
Age 54, VA
In the first century when the church was at its poorest it turned the world upside down. Today when the church is at its richest it makes a mockery of the cause of Christ. Luke Click here to reply to this post
Health, Wealth & Prosperity
Posted On: 03/28/08 04:49:45 PM
Age 38, OH
You CAN and Should tell all the world that Jesus died that you can have health, wealth and be prosperous in all areas of your life. Jesus went around healing the sick and so should you. Jesus brought wealth to Peter's fishing business and He wants to bring wealth to your business too. So many of you preachers focus on Job's suffering. I focus on what Job received when he got through his suffering.
Telling people anywhere in the world that the Creator of all things loves them but can't heal them or help them better their lives is the counterfit gospel.
People used to line up for Peter to just walk by them so they would be healed. Do you believe that Peter was a false teacher? When Peter and John healed the man at the Gate called Beautiful, they healed him so he wouldn't have to be on the welfare system of that day. Scripture doesn't tell us what happened to this man but I'll bet he went and got a job or started a business and Prospered! Click here to reply to this post
Prosperous and healthy
Posted On: 04/08/08 09:37:08 PM
Age 63, WI
Beloved, I wish above all things that you may prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospers.(3 John 1:2) It grieves me to still see so much confusion and ignorance in what is so clearly taught in my Father's Holy Word. I once walked in ignorance, but the Word continually challanged and encourged me to just believe what it says. After 30+ years of serving the Lord, He has taught me that healing for sickness and blessings in finances are part of redemption. I have walked in this and I know that it works! Health, wealth and wisdom are God's desires for His children. But you have to believe that all things are possible to them that believe!
Yes, I am grateful and would expect no more than remission of my sins through the shed blood of Jesus. It would, however, be a slap in His face if I refused to accept the balance of what He provided for all of us that believe. Click here to reply to this post
bewitched
Posted On: 03/31/08 08:13:41 PM
Age 59, VA
Oh, My, Do you really believe these things? Do you not recall that when Peter and John were stopped by the man at the Gate Beautiful, Peter said to the man, ”Silver and gold have I none, but such as I have give I thee. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk." And when the people gathered marveling at the miracle, Peter preached a sermon calling the hearers to repentance. This miracle happened to confirm the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Mark 16:20 says "and they went forth and preached every where, the Lord working with them and confirming the Word with signs following." I agree that it is preposterous to believe that this happened so the healed man would not go on welfare. If Jesus had brought wealth to Peter’s fishing business, as you have said, why would he not have given the man money, too, if keeping the man off the welfare system of the day was the point, as you have said also? (Perhaps, Peter did not part with any of his own wealth because it didn’t have enough time to multiply exponentially yet? -A great focus and expectation of those who believe the Health and.Wealth Gospel) No! It was never about money and wealth. You are deceived, bewitched, seduced by your own desires and you have come up with your own revelation, which is unsupported by scripture. You have heaped to yourself teachers who tickle your ears and rather than rightly dividing the Word yourself, you now parrot your false teachers. Please pray and ask God to show you how you are deceived. Click here to reply to this post
Do you see red or green?
Posted On: 03/31/08 01:45:23 PM
Age 40, CA
When I think of what Christ did for me and you on the cross -- I think of the unimaginable pain He experienced (not to mention becoming a lowly servant and experiencing all the hardships and temptations we all experience), I think about how wonderful He was while He walked on this earth, I think about how often I rejected Him, ignored Him, and willingly sinned against Him despite the price He had to pay for those sins.
Let's say that you murdered someone and you were on death row awaiting execution. This man visits your cell and tells you that he only has one son (who never committed a crime) and is willing to allow his son to take your place and die in your stead, you will be set free, and he will provide for your needs (not necessarily wants, but needs) for the rest of your life.
My question: would you have any inclination to even ask this man for anything else? Or would you rather want to serve this man out of gratitude?
This is why I don't understand prosperity teachers and their followers. Yes, God tells us to ask -- Ok, let's ask that God use us for His purpose and pleasure, that He help us to die more to ourselves and live for Him and others, that He help us to forgive and love our enemies; let's ask Him to give more to us so that we can give more to the missionaries who are in great need, let's ask Him to give us more energy and desire to study His word and the ability to apply it to our lives; let's ask him to help us pray more for everyone first then our needs last, to help us put Him first in our lives, to help us find more time to devote to the church, to help us understand what it means to be content in all situations; and let's ask that He reveal the iniquity that lies hidden within our hearts so that we can present it to God and request a cleansing. I don't know about you, but I believe God has done waaayyyy too much for me to ask Him for stuff that doesn't demonstrate my gratitude and love for what He did for you and I. Click here to reply to this post
Sola Scriptura
Posted On: 03/30/08 07:16:37 AM
Age 54, VA
I quote you, "Scripture doesn't tell us what happened to this man but I'll bet he went and got a job or started a business and Prospered!" what if the truth is that the next day he stepped onto the street and was run over and killed by an ox cart. Of course the latter wouldn't fit your theology of health and wealth. Most of the WoF teachings come from extra-biblical revelations or suppositions that has resulted in this false health and wealth gospel. You should have stopped at "Scripture doesn't tell us what happened to this man" Sola Scriptura - Luke Click here to reply to this post
Health, wealth gospel breeds lies
Posted On: 03/30/08 06:46:55 AM
Age 54, VA
Ken Hagin, the father of the WoF (health, wealth) movement, stated that he never had a headache and that if he did he wouldn't admit to it. In other words he was willing to lie to maintain the facade of the health, wealth gospel. He eventually died of heart disease. I guess he didn't have enough faith. Click here to reply to this post
Peter's wealth
Posted On: 03/29/08 10:37:12 PM
Age 47, MO
Jesus brought wealth to Peter's fishing business??? Is this why he left the business and followed Christ? Is this why Peter wrote in 1Peter 1:6,7 "You have been grieved by many trials that the genuineness of your faith being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire." Uh, trials, testing, grieved, doesn't sound like wealth, health, and prosperity to me. Perhaps God didn't care for them too much. John Click here to reply to this post
Wrong reasoning
Posted On: 03/29/08 08:43:19 AM
Age 54, VA
Peter and John didn't heal the man at the gate so that he could get off welfare. He was healed so that the people would know that Peter and John were Apostles of Jesus and spoke God's truth. Luke Click here to reply to this post
Try Proverbs 12:12
Posted On: 03/29/08 08:40:31 AM
Age 54, VA
While you are lusting after the wealth of the wicked maybe you should consider Proverbs 12:12 - The wicked desire the plunder of evil men, but the root of the righteous flourishes. Luke Click here to reply to this post
Say what?
Posted On: 03/29/08 02:01:43 AM
Age 53, CA
Jesus didn't die so we could be healthy wealthy and prosperous. He died to settle the problem of sin. He died to make us righteous so we could be reconciled unto God. God doesn't necessarily want to bring wealth to our lives. What God wants is obedience. He may or may not bless someone with riches and a healthy blessed life. Some people are drawn into a right relationship with God because of difficult trials, like me. Jesus taught that as a christian there will be tribulation, temptation and persecution in our lives. There are so many warnings in the Bible about what money can do to people. Deut. 8:10-18, Luke 12:15, 1 Timothy 6:9-10. Matthew 6:25-34 says we are to depend on the Lord for our needs. James 2:5 says that God has chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the Kingdom which He promised to those who love Him. You can be rich and love God and poor and love God. I guess the million dollar question would be, if someone who believes in this prosperity gospel lost their health, wealth and prosperity would they still love and obey God and be thankful for what they do have? Phil. 2:3 says we are to do nothing through selfish ambition or conceit but in lowliness of mind esteem others better than himself. If we are poor we are not to judge those who are rich, and if we are rich we are not to judge those who are poor. Thank goodness the Lord judges the heart.
When Peter and John healed the lame man at the gate they didn't do it so he wouldn't have to be on the welfare system. They did it so he would believe in Jesus Christ as His Savior and escape his just penalty in Hell. And it says that the lame man was walking, leaping and praising God. Read Acts 3. Click here to reply to this post
Finally! A person with wisdom!
Posted On: 03/29/08 08:31:06 AM
Age 56, AR
I've heard it all about this subject. I've heard the sermons for, and against this message, and you are correct. It isn't about wealth, and prosperity. Sometimes God has to keep certain people broke to keep them on their knees. The minute they get wealth, they "forget" about God. That's why the bible says that it is harder for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God, than it is for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. Think about it. All of the people that are teaching the prosperity message all have a message at the end of their message. Send us your money so we can prove that what we told you is true. I call that being a huckster, and I don't send them a dime. I give to certain ministries that I see doing the work of God, and I want to be a part of that work. The mega churches disgust me. They spend so much money on their buildings, and their entertainment. What would happen if they put the money out there to support the smaller ministries, or the hurting Christian people that have no means to support themselves. The widows, and the orphans that have no one in their lives to help them, etc....God said when you do it unto the least of these, you are doing it unto ME! Click here to reply to this post
Discipleship is costly
Posted On: 03/28/08 04:49:45 PM
Age 40, IN
Although to Christ, salvation for us was terribly costly, to us, discipleship is costly as well.
The price Jesus paid:
1 Corinthians 6:20, "For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s."
1 Corinthians 7:23, "You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men."
And the cost of following Christ after we have the Spirit because Romans 8:7 says that the carnal mind (That is without the Spirit) is an enemy of God, it doesn't submit to His law, nor indeed can it. So how can we submit to Jesus and follow Him without the Spirit?
I believe in a costly grace that has been freely bestowed upon us. This is why we serve God -- out of strong gratitude, not out of obligation (we have to do this, we have to do that in order to pay for our salvation...).
The only difference between you and I is that I am free from thinking about how I'm going to pay for my salvation, and free to serve God for His glory, for His pleasure, and for His purpose -- not for my salvation. Click here to reply to this post
Free
Posted On: 03/28/08 03:59:25 PM
Age 40, IN
1) Romans 3:24, "...being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,"
2) Romans 5:15, "But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many."
3) Romans 5:16, "And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification."
4) Romans 5:18, "Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."
5) Galatians 4:26, "but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all."
6) Revelation 21:6, "And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts."
7) Revelation 22:17, "And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely."
8) Matthew 10:8, "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give."
Are these verses enough evidence or do you wish that I send some more? Click here to reply to this post
Awesome Testimony
Posted On: 03/28/08 02:39:55 PM
Age 51, NC
What an awesome testimony! I pray that if I was asked the same question as the son and mother, that I would be able to give the same answer. I know that as a mother, my problem would come when they put the gun to my child's head, while asking ME the question. If I was sure of my child's salvation, I could answer the same, but if not, I don't know what I would do! Following Christ is rarely easy, but it has many blessings that are more important than the things of this world. BMC Click here to reply to this post
NOTHING OF GREAT WORTH IS FREE
Posted On: 03/27/08 01:25:56 PM
Age 64, OH
Do men give away things that are of great worth. They might try to lead you to believe the things they give away are of great worth but it is not true. If men do really give something away of value then they will give one away among many people. Things of great value are not free. The Holy Scriptures never state that salvation is free. This is the false gospel of men. What is of the greatest value to you. Is it not your life. Jesus said if you hang onto your life you will lose it. But if you lose your life you will gain it. Eternal life is NOT free. Jesus gives us eternal life when we give ALL that we have to Him. Eternal life cost us everything we have and can not be had for one penny less. After all Jesus gave up everything He had to give us eternal life. Lou Click here to reply to this post
You can lose what was alread lost.
Posted On: 03/28/08 04:28:18 PM
Age 40, IN
Yes, Jesus gave up everything He had, but, according to you, I guess that wasn't enough.
Your prayer to God might sound like:
God, thank you for sending your Son Jesus to give up everything He had to pay the penalty of my sin. But, everything that He gave was not good enough, so I'll just have to provide the amount He lacked. Because when He said, "It is finished," He meant, His partial payment for my sin was "finished" -- now I must pay my partial payment because I don't believe God gives good gifts for free.
Please read, Titus 3:4-7, "But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us...that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life."
This says it pretty clearly. Grace is unmerited favor when punished is deserved. If we have to pay for our salvation, then Grace is no longer grace.
We "lose our lives" for Christ when we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit BECAUSE:
1) We WERE buried and raised with Christ:
Romans 6:4, "Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." AND Colossians 2:12, we were "...buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."
AND
2) As born again Christians, we don't live, but Christ lives in us.
Galatians 2:20, "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."
So what life do we ourselves lose if we were nailed to the Cross with Christ, were buried with Him, and were raised with Him??? Click here to reply to this post
ANY MAN WHO HAS CHRIST HAS EVERYTHING
Posted On: 04/01/08 12:49:32 AM
Age 64, OH
Dear friend, you need to read more carefully for you say I have said things that I did not say and did not imply or do not believe. You will have to make your argument to The Lord Jesus. For did not Jesus say, "those who hang onto their life will lose it and those who give up their life will gain it". Jesus will not save the life of any person unless that person gives their life to Jesus. Can Jesus save the life of a man who refuses to give his life to Jesus, and instead walks his own way. We give Him our sin and He gives us His righteousness. It is a silly statement to say that any man can add anything to the blood of Jesus, for of course no man can. We all can learn from this statement from the Holy Spirit; "esteem others higher than yourself". Lou Click here to reply to this post
Your quotes
Posted On: 04/04/08 11:33:22 AM
Age 40, IN
I have cut and pasted your comments that clearly indicate that you meant to say that salvation and eternal life is not free.
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You wrote: "Things of great value are not free. The Holy Scriptures never state that salvation is free." and "Things of great value are not free." and "Eternal life is NOT free."
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You also wrote in your response to my comment: "It is a silly statement to say that any man can add anything to the blood of Jesus, for of course no man can."
BUT yet you contradict this statement by having written in your original comment: "Jesus gives us eternal life when we give ALL that we have to Him."
Isn't giving all you have, adding something to the blood of Jesus? Yes it is because the cost Christ paid is not enough unless, according to you, we give something ALSO!
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I do not have to argue against the Lord, because I know what Jesus said is true, however, what you do not understand is that the cost of giving up your life is the cost of discipleship, not salvation!
Here is Jesus words in Luke 17:33, "Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it." Please refer to your Bible and read this verse. It is not another translation, please open your Bible and read it. Now, how can you preserve something that is dead? Remember that through Adam, we all died (Romans 5)?
Also, how can we submit to God and give Him our life when Romans 8:7 says that the carnal mind (this is the type of mind we have when we are not saved) is an enemy of God, it will submit to Him because IT CANNOT? And how anyone who is not born again (with the spirit) understand that if we surrender our lives that we will gain it if in 1 Corinthians 2:14 we read, "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." Again: ...the natural man does not receive the things of God because he cannot understand those things.
If you, as many do, wish to say that Romans is not relating to an individual but to the nation of Israel, then explain when Paul wrote to the church in Rome which was not Jewish, "For if WE (Gentiles included) were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son...and we shall be saved by HIS LIFE." Let's see -- we (being enemies) were reconciled to God through giving up our lives or "...by the death of His Son"? Answer: His Son's death. And, we shall be saved by giving up our life or "...we shall be saved by HIS life."? Answer: His Life not ours.
Again, I am not saying that we don't have to give up our lives for the sake of Christ -- YES WE DO have to die to ourselves and live for Christ, suffer for the sake of Christ and not the sake of our salvation. Yes we do have to "consider ourselves dead to sin..." and not use our liberty as a license to sin. But to live as Christ lived.
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Again, I have proven with Scipture in my previous post that Salvation and eternal life are free --- BUT the cost of discipleship (after salvation) is painfully expensive. This for some reason is difficult for some people to understand. I don't know why, but perhaps when Paul spoke to the church in Corinth and said, I must speak to you as carnal people and can only serve you milk and not meat, I guess I can understand. Click here to reply to this post
The Free Gift
Posted On: 04/06/08 01:17:20 PM
Age 59, VA
I agree, I don't think I understood "giving my life" to Jesus when I put my faith in what He did for me on the Cross. When I believed in His shed blood for the forgiveness of my sins and confessed Him as my Lord and Savior, I had only just "begun" the motions of dying to self. As the Holy Spirit guided me and taught me I began to learn about dying to self, counting the cost, etc. I DID understand when I got born again, that there would be a cost. I did have to consider or count the cost, but I had not yet fully surrendered to Him and I did not conprehend the extent of what it was goint to cost me. Yet my salvation was free. "But not as the offence, so also is the FREE GIFT. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift,for the judgement was by one to comdemnation, but the FREE GIFT is of many offences unto justification.... Therefore as by the offence of one judgement came upon all men to condemnamtion; even so by the righteousness of the FREE GIFT came upon all men unto justification of life," Romans 5:15-18 KJV. What is the Free Gift? The word which is forever settled in Heaven says in Romans 6:23 "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is Eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." With all respect to Lou, I think if a person agrees with Scripture, he is agreeing rather with, rather than arguing, with God. And said person can still be esteeming someone higher than themselves while disagreeing with that person. Click here to reply to this post
THE BLOOD OF JESUS IS WORTH EVERYTHING
Posted On: 04/04/08 11:51:33 PM
Age 64, OH
You say,"Again, I am not saying that we don't have to give up our lives for the sake of Christ -- YES WE DO have to die to ourselves and live for Christ," - Then what point are you trying to make and what are you arguing about. You then say,"Again, I have proven with Scipture in my previous post that Salvation and eternal life are free" You have proven NO SUCH THING. Show me ONE scripture that says salvation is free. God almighty bankrupt Himself and gave ALL for our salvation. SHOW ME ANYTHING THAT it did not cost The Lord Jesus. It cost Jesus every drop of His blood. Do you consider His blood worth nothing. On one hand we have nothing to give, for our very lives are worth nothing without Him. But on the other hand, it cost us everything we have. Our life has to be given to the Lord Jesus before he can save us. We DO NOT give our life as payment for our salvation, that is ridiculous. But we give our whole life to Him and then trust Jesus to save our life. Lou Click here to reply to this post
Forgot the most important one
Posted On: 04/14/08 03:44:58 PM
Age 40, IN
What is the FREE GIFT that we read often in Romans and 1 Corinthians?
Romans 6:23 "The wages of sin is death, but the GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE through Jesus Christ our Lord." Click here to reply to this post
WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE AND NOTHING BUT GRACE
Posted On: 04/14/08 11:23:47 PM
Age 64, OH
I agree with every word written in the Holy Scriptures. But I stand behind what I said in my posts. If you are having difficulty understanding what I have written, then I suggest you reread them. I have NEVER said one thing that would indicate we are not saved totally by grace and nothing but grace. You are reading that into my words, for it is not there. I have written several times that we do not give our life to Jesus for PAYMENT of any kind. Are life is worth nothing what could it pay for. We have to give our life to Jesus for Him to save it. Lou Click here to reply to this post
What can our life pay for?
Posted On: 04/15/08 01:21:40 PM
Age 40, IN
Jesus said: "He who loses his life for my sake..." not "...He who gives me his life..." You got your interpretation wrong.
So, according to you, we will not be saved if we don't give our lives to Christ? Find Scripture to support this please. Jesus said you cannot enter heaven unless you are born again.
It's simple: JOHN 3:36, "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
JOHN 3:3, " Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
ROMANS 10:9, "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."
Romans 4:3-6, "For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. David Celebrates the Same Truth but to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works..."
PLEASE PROVIDE SCRIPTURE THAT SUPPORTS WE HAVE TO GIVE OUR LIVES TO GOD IN ORDER TO RECEIVE RIGHTEOUSNESS OR ETERNAL LIFE.
I guess I'll be waiting for a while. Click here to reply to this post
GIVE YOUR LIFE TO JESUS
Posted On: 04/21/08 11:27:51 AM
Age 64, OH
The Book or The Bible teaches just that. Show me a scripture that says we are NOT to give our lives to Jesus Christ. You are the one who disagreed so the burden of proof lies on you. Are you saying when I gave my life to Jesus Christ you think it was a bad thing. Lou Click here to reply to this post
Your quote
Posted On: 04/15/08 12:49:24 PM
Age 40, IN
How can anyone NOT think that you meant to say that we must add to the cost that Jesus paid for our sin when you wrote: "We give Him our sin and He gives us His righteousness." AND how can anyone NOT think that you meant to say that we must add to the cost that Jesus paid to give us life when you wrote, "Jesus gives us eternal life WHEN [conditional] we give ALL that we have to Him." How can something FREE be dependent on our giving something? It doesn't make sense.
What you have written is identified as conditional grace, which nullifies grace because if we must give something (our lives and our sin) to obtain life, then grace is no longer grace because, as you know, grace is UNMERITED FAVOR THAT WE DON'T DESERVE WHEN WE DESERVE PUNISHMENT. If we gave our lives to Christ IN ORDER to receive life (according to your quote), then, we have met a requirement and therefore deserve grace which is an oxymoron proven by the definition of grace alone.
How can anyone not understand that giving your life and giving your sin to gain eternal life isn't equivalent to adding something to the blood of Jesus?
You have even attracted the attention of another reader who responded the way I did.
If you want to stand on your posts -- do as you wish. I will stand on Scripture which clearly states that there is nothing we can do (not even giving our lives or sin) to gain eternal life. We gladly give our lives AFTER we have eternal life because we are grateful for what He did for us. Click here to reply to this post
DISCUSSION IS GOOD - ARGUMENT IS NOT
Posted On: 04/21/08 11:23:40 AM
Age 64, OH
friend it is not to the good of the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus to carry on this discussion. There is no point in discussing The Holy Spirit of Jesus if all the while we are grieving His Spirit. Lou Click here to reply to this post
Cost
Posted On: 04/14/08 03:39:33 PM
Age 40, IN
Of course Christ paid a great price for us, but the result (ETERNAL LIFE) is given freely to us. We don't have to pay for our salvation because Christ has already paid for it. Now, once we receive salvation freely, we joyfully (and at a great price) give our lives to Christ for His purpose and pleasure.
I don't think you understand grace very well. Click here to reply to this post
I will gladly provide the verses again
Posted On: 04/14/08 03:25:32 PM
Age 40, IN
Romans 3:24, "being justified FREELY by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,"
Romans 5:15, "But the FREE GIFT is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the GIFT BY GRACE of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many."
Romans 5:16, "And the GIFT is not like that [death] which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the FREE GIFT which came from many offenses resulted in justification."
Romans 5:18, "Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the FREE GIFT came to all men, resulting in justification of life." JUSTIFICATION OF WHAT???? ETERNAL LIFE!
Galatians 4:26, "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."
Revelation 21:6, "And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely." THE ----- F R E E ------ WATER OF LIFE IS THE HOLY SPIRIT (WHICH GIVES ETERNAL LIFE, JOHN 3).
Revelation 22:17, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." AGAIN, FREE WATER OF LIFE (HOLY SPIRIT THAT GIVES US ETERNAL LIFE FREELY). Click here to reply to this post
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